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	<title>Comments on: Income Inequality in Australia and the US</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/</link>
	<description>Obstinately objective</description>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-5418</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Jan 2010 01:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-5418</guid>
		<description>Hi, Stubborn

Happy new year.

As you are interested in income and wealth distributions, I&#039;ve posted a short comment on the subject. It&#039;s called &quot;La Vie en Rose: the Irvine Index&quot;. You can find it at:
http://aussiemagpie.blogspot.com/

I am still studying some material, so a more elaborate article is cooking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Stubborn</p>
<p>Happy new year.</p>
<p>As you are interested in income and wealth distributions, I&#8217;ve posted a short comment on the subject. It&#8217;s called &#8220;La Vie en Rose: the Irvine Index&#8221;. You can find it at:<br />
<a href="http://aussiemagpie.blogspot.com/">http://aussiemagpie.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>I am still studying some material, so a more elaborate article is cooking.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-5019</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-5019</guid>
		<description>The link is

Magpie&#039;s Asymmetric Warfare
http://aussiemagpie.blogspot.com/

I don&#039;t have much stuff yet, though.

Marco</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The link is</p>
<p>Magpie&#8217;s Asymmetric Warfare<br />
<a href="http://aussiemagpie.blogspot.com/">http://aussiemagpie.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have much stuff yet, though.</p>
<p>Marco</p>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-5012</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-5012</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Marco: &lt;/b&gt;Omitting capital gains does seem to introduce an unnecessary skew in the results. You are right as well that there will always be estimation errors in sample-based statistics. Fortunately, however, the statistics here are quantiles which are more robust (i.e. less sensitive to inclusion/exclusion of outliers) than statistics such as the mean.

By all means post the URL to your blog post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Marco: </b>Omitting capital gains does seem to introduce an unnecessary skew in the results. You are right as well that there will always be estimation errors in sample-based statistics. Fortunately, however, the statistics here are quantiles which are more robust (i.e. less sensitive to inclusion/exclusion of outliers) than statistics such as the mean.</p>
<p>By all means post the URL to your blog post.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-5009</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-5009</guid>
		<description>Hi Stubborn Mule,

Interesting subject. Allow me a couple of observations:

First observation:

I haven&#039;t read Bartels&#039; &quot;Unequal Democracy&quot;, so I don&#039;t know which sources were used in the book. Judging by the NYT article, where the table above appears, it seems the data comes from the US Census Bureau. 

If so, then I suspect the data is part of the American Community Surveys. These studies, as their name indicates, are based on samples. If a sample fails to include extremely wealthy individuals (say, Bill Gates or Warren Buffett), the results (especially those of the upper echelons in the income scale) will be underestimated.

But, perhaps much more importantly, the American Community Surveys do not include capital gains as part of their income definition; while I believe it does include all government transfers (food stamps, unemployment, and such).

In this the ABS&#039;s Survey of Income and Housing is quite similar: it is also based on a sample and does not include capital gains (although it does include profit/loss from unincorporated business and net investment income, plus government transfers, i.e. pensions and allowances).

Why they exclude capital gains, while including most other forms of regular income? I don&#039;t really know for sure. But I suspect this distorts the final result, in both the US and Aussie cases, regardless of political party.

Second observation:

Does it really matter? I suggest a different way to look at this question: any attempt to reduce inequality will likely face enormous political opposition. At least, this has been the historical experience. This, I would think, suggests a part of the population cares about maintaining high inequality levels.

Why should those at the bottom of the scale be indifferent?

Besides, this situation did not simply arise, for no particular reason. I suggest that its causes may conceivably be quite relevant.

I am sorry for the self-promotion, but I am writing some material about this topic and I hope to be posting it in my own blog shortly. If you are interested, let me know and I will give you my URL.

Cheers,

Marco</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stubborn Mule,</p>
<p>Interesting subject. Allow me a couple of observations:</p>
<p>First observation:</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read Bartels&#8217; &#8220;Unequal Democracy&#8221;, so I don&#8217;t know which sources were used in the book. Judging by the NYT article, where the table above appears, it seems the data comes from the US Census Bureau. </p>
<p>If so, then I suspect the data is part of the American Community Surveys. These studies, as their name indicates, are based on samples. If a sample fails to include extremely wealthy individuals (say, Bill Gates or Warren Buffett), the results (especially those of the upper echelons in the income scale) will be underestimated.</p>
<p>But, perhaps much more importantly, the American Community Surveys do not include capital gains as part of their income definition; while I believe it does include all government transfers (food stamps, unemployment, and such).</p>
<p>In this the ABS&#8217;s Survey of Income and Housing is quite similar: it is also based on a sample and does not include capital gains (although it does include profit/loss from unincorporated business and net investment income, plus government transfers, i.e. pensions and allowances).</p>
<p>Why they exclude capital gains, while including most other forms of regular income? I don&#8217;t really know for sure. But I suspect this distorts the final result, in both the US and Aussie cases, regardless of political party.</p>
<p>Second observation:</p>
<p>Does it really matter? I suggest a different way to look at this question: any attempt to reduce inequality will likely face enormous political opposition. At least, this has been the historical experience. This, I would think, suggests a part of the population cares about maintaining high inequality levels.</p>
<p>Why should those at the bottom of the scale be indifferent?</p>
<p>Besides, this situation did not simply arise, for no particular reason. I suggest that its causes may conceivably be quite relevant.</p>
<p>I am sorry for the self-promotion, but I am writing some material about this topic and I hope to be posting it in my own blog shortly. If you are interested, let me know and I will give you my URL.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Marco</p>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-4093</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-4093</guid>
		<description>New post on the updated ABS coming soon. Here is &lt;a href=&quot;http://mule.posterous.com/australian-income-inequality&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a preview&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New post on the updated ABS coming soon. Here is <a href="http://mule.posterous.com/australian-income-inequality">a preview</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Samuel Dance</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-4068</link>
		<dc:creator>Samuel Dance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-4068</guid>
		<description>I think a better indication of wealth distribution is ones ability to purchase a House, which has become an outright impossibility for the lower earners in society. As for our ability to buy a loaf of bread, yes it has become more manageable, but where does that loaf of bread come from? whose pocket is suffering to cause this saving? 
Probably farmers?..... As its either been imported or Woolworths or coles have driven down their buying prices, which means the trade deficit increases and or working class jobs disappear. As for other essentials, such as electricity bills, water and so on, these have also risen in conjunction with or above wage inflation. Therefore I would have to postulate that the rich poor divide is indeed growing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a better indication of wealth distribution is ones ability to purchase a House, which has become an outright impossibility for the lower earners in society. As for our ability to buy a loaf of bread, yes it has become more manageable, but where does that loaf of bread come from? whose pocket is suffering to cause this saving?<br />
Probably farmers?&#8230;.. As its either been imported or Woolworths or coles have driven down their buying prices, which means the trade deficit increases and or working class jobs disappear. As for other essentials, such as electricity bills, water and so on, these have also risen in conjunction with or above wage inflation. Therefore I would have to postulate that the rich poor divide is indeed growing.</p>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-1738</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-1738</guid>
		<description>@David: thanks for the link. At first glance, that paper also uses ABS data, so I&#039;ll look more closely to see why our conclusions differ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David: thanks for the link. At first glance, that paper also uses ABS data, so I&#8217;ll look more closely to see why our conclusions differ.</p>
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		<title>By: David Laboyrie</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-1722</link>
		<dc:creator>David Laboyrie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-1722</guid>
		<description>Your analysis seems at odds with &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vinnies.org.au/UserFiles/File/NATIONAL/Social%20Justice/2005%20May%2029%20-%20The%20Reality%20of%20Income%20Inequality%20in%20Australia.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;St. Vinnies&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your analysis seems at odds with <a href="http://www.vinnies.org.au/UserFiles/File/NATIONAL/Social%20Justice/2005%20May%2029%20-%20The%20Reality%20of%20Income%20Inequality%20in%20Australia.pdf">St. Vinnies</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-1460</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 05:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-1460</guid>
		<description>@Tristam: As Mark notes, adjusting the figures for inflation accounts for purchasing power. In fact all the figures in the post are adjusted for inflation, &lt;b&gt;including&lt;/b&gt; the US figures (which were taken from the table in the NYT article).

You do, however, raise a good question when you ask does it really matter. While the instinctive reaction of many people is that increasing income inequality is not fair, this is not necessarily a rational position. In an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/05/self-herding/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;earlier post&lt;/a&gt; I referred to Dan Ariely&#039;s excellent book &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Predictably-Irrational-Hidden-Forces-Decisions/dp/006135323X&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Predictably Irrational&lt;/a&gt;. One of the points Dan makes is that humans are much better at making relative judgements than absolute (How much is a 4 cylinder car worth? Who knows, but it&#039;s less than the 6-cylinder). As a result, although most of the 10th percentile of Australian income earners have food, clothes and shelter, unlike countless people around the world, they will tend to judge their circumstances in comparisons to other Australians. So, even though you can certainly argue that increasing income inequality &lt;i&gt;shouldn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; matter, in practice is does tend to affect people&#039;s happiness. Although, the solution may be for everyone to read a book like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.selfishcapitalist.com/affluenza.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Affluenza&lt;/a&gt; rather than closing the gap.

@Bast: Although you&#039;re right that the fortunes of many of the richest will have taken a downturn recently (some former Lehman Brothers employees, for example), it&#039;s probably not something that you&#039;d pick up in data like this: the 90th percentile is far too low. All the CEOs would be well and truly above the 99th percentile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tristam: As Mark notes, adjusting the figures for inflation accounts for purchasing power. In fact all the figures in the post are adjusted for inflation, <b>including</b> the US figures (which were taken from the table in the NYT article).</p>
<p>You do, however, raise a good question when you ask does it really matter. While the instinctive reaction of many people is that increasing income inequality is not fair, this is not necessarily a rational position. In an <a href="http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/05/self-herding/">earlier post</a> I referred to Dan Ariely&#8217;s excellent book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Predictably-Irrational-Hidden-Forces-Decisions/dp/006135323X">Predictably Irrational</a>. One of the points Dan makes is that humans are much better at making relative judgements than absolute (How much is a 4 cylinder car worth? Who knows, but it&#8217;s less than the 6-cylinder). As a result, although most of the 10th percentile of Australian income earners have food, clothes and shelter, unlike countless people around the world, they will tend to judge their circumstances in comparisons to other Australians. So, even though you can certainly argue that increasing income inequality <i>shouldn&#8217;t</i> matter, in practice is does tend to affect people&#8217;s happiness. Although, the solution may be for everyone to read a book like <a href="http://www.selfishcapitalist.com/affluenza.html">Affluenza</a> rather than closing the gap.</p>
<p>@Bast: Although you&#8217;re right that the fortunes of many of the richest will have taken a downturn recently (some former Lehman Brothers employees, for example), it&#8217;s probably not something that you&#8217;d pick up in data like this: the 90th percentile is far too low. All the CEOs would be well and truly above the 99th percentile.</p>
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		<title>By: Kwoff.com</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2008/09/income-inequality/comment-page-1/#comment-1454</link>
		<dc:creator>Kwoff.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 05:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1214#comment-1454</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Income Inequality in Australia and the US &#124; A Stubborn Mule&#039;s Perspective...&lt;/strong&gt;

Income inequality in Australia not increasing as much as the US....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Income Inequality in Australia and the US | A Stubborn Mule&#8217;s Perspective&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Income inequality in Australia not increasing as much as the US&#8230;.</p>
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