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	<title>Comments on: Who is to Blame for BrisConnections?</title>
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	<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/</link>
	<description>Obstinately objective</description>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2998</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2998</guid>
		<description>@Equity Guy: thanks for the historical context. While I participated in T1 and T2, I did not participate in T3. It is very interesting to see that T3 had a compulsory instalment, and you are right that the fallout in that case would have been much bigger if it had collapsed in value than would have been the case with BrisConnections.

I should point out that I have no doubt that compulsory instalments are completely legal (as, indeed, are other forms of liability, debt included). The reason I nevertheless think that instruments like this should &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; be listed on the ASX is not because they are legal, but because the exchange cannot facilitate fair trading when value becomes negative. No amount of disclosure by brokers would change that. So while improving broker disclosure is a good thing, there is still a fundemental problem with these instruments. It&#039;s just that the problem is hidden in a rising market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Equity Guy: thanks for the historical context. While I participated in T1 and T2, I did not participate in T3. It is very interesting to see that T3 had a compulsory instalment, and you are right that the fallout in that case would have been much bigger if it had collapsed in value than would have been the case with BrisConnections.</p>
<p>I should point out that I have no doubt that compulsory instalments are completely legal (as, indeed, are other forms of liability, debt included). The reason I nevertheless think that instruments like this should <b>not</b> be listed on the ASX is not because they are legal, but because the exchange cannot facilitate fair trading when value becomes negative. No amount of disclosure by brokers would change that. So while improving broker disclosure is a good thing, there is still a fundemental problem with these instruments. It&#8217;s just that the problem is hidden in a rising market.</p>
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		<title>By: Equity Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2997</link>
		<dc:creator>Equity Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2997</guid>
		<description>Mule,

Good post. Agree that the Brisconnect saga has seen a wealth transfer from uninformed to informed investors all of which, while legal, is not good for the reputation of the market. I certainly feel sorry for (some of) the affected retail investors, however in defence of the ASX, partly paid shares have been around in Australia since the 1860s so are not exactly a &quot;new&quot; innovation. So perhaps the fault should lie with the discount brokers in failing to protect their newb clients, rather than the exchange.

A quick (and rough) history lesson
Pre 1850s: Limited liability companies did not exist. Shareholders were responsible in full for any debts of the company even if they owned a small percentage of the firm (sounds scary).

1860: Partly paid shares were introduced in Australia, investors were liable for the full amount of unpaid call payments.

1871: No liability shares were introduced in 1871 in Victoria, under which shareholders were not obliged to pay outstanding calls on shares.

Today: CORPORATIONS ACT 2001 - SECT 254M recognises both contributing and no-liability companies. Under the former &quot;If shares in a company are  partly paid , the shareholder is liable to pay calls on the shares in accordance with the terms on which the shares are on issue. This subsection does not apply to a no liability company. Note: The shareholder may also be liable as a contributory under sections 514-529 if the company is wound up&quot;

So BCS does not seem a particularly unusual or innovative corporate structure. It probably made sense at the time given capital was required as the road was gradually built (although paying dividends from year 1 in no way seems natural).

According to Commsec (see http://www.comsec.com.au/public/news.aspx?id=1023), in fact Telstra 3 installment receipts *did* in fact impose a legal requirement on shareholders to make the second payment, as did MGX and BCS. 

Imagine if the GFC had arrived a few years earlier, and T3 did a Brisconnect. The fallout from that would have been huge.

Equity Guy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mule,</p>
<p>Good post. Agree that the Brisconnect saga has seen a wealth transfer from uninformed to informed investors all of which, while legal, is not good for the reputation of the market. I certainly feel sorry for (some of) the affected retail investors, however in defence of the ASX, partly paid shares have been around in Australia since the 1860s so are not exactly a &#8220;new&#8221; innovation. So perhaps the fault should lie with the discount brokers in failing to protect their newb clients, rather than the exchange.</p>
<p>A quick (and rough) history lesson<br />
Pre 1850s: Limited liability companies did not exist. Shareholders were responsible in full for any debts of the company even if they owned a small percentage of the firm (sounds scary).</p>
<p>1860: Partly paid shares were introduced in Australia, investors were liable for the full amount of unpaid call payments.</p>
<p>1871: No liability shares were introduced in 1871 in Victoria, under which shareholders were not obliged to pay outstanding calls on shares.</p>
<p>Today: CORPORATIONS ACT 2001 &#8211; SECT 254M recognises both contributing and no-liability companies. Under the former &#8220;If shares in a company are  partly paid , the shareholder is liable to pay calls on the shares in accordance with the terms on which the shares are on issue. This subsection does not apply to a no liability company. Note: The shareholder may also be liable as a contributory under sections 514-529 if the company is wound up&#8221;</p>
<p>So BCS does not seem a particularly unusual or innovative corporate structure. It probably made sense at the time given capital was required as the road was gradually built (although paying dividends from year 1 in no way seems natural).</p>
<p>According to Commsec (see <a href="http://www.comsec.com.au/public/news.aspx?id=1023)">http://www.comsec.com.au/public/news.aspx?id=1023)</a>, in fact Telstra 3 installment receipts *did* in fact impose a legal requirement on shareholders to make the second payment, as did MGX and BCS. </p>
<p>Imagine if the GFC had arrived a few years earlier, and T3 did a Brisconnect. The fallout from that would have been huge.</p>
<p>Equity Guy</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2995</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2995</guid>
		<description>ASM,

Honest and intelligent insights as ever.    The comments from CV about the potential conflict by Trevor Rowe are spot on too.  I feel that self directed on-line investors need to be stick the phrase &quot;Caveat emptor&quot; at the top of their PC screen!!  Any who has ever bought a few shares should know 1.  that the da. suffix to the stock code has has a particular meaning (or at least should prompt additional fact finding), and 2. that considering buying a share worth 1c or less which has dropped from $1 (should prompt additional fact finding).

tim
&quot;video bonaque sed sequor male&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ASM,</p>
<p>Honest and intelligent insights as ever.    The comments from CV about the potential conflict by Trevor Rowe are spot on too.  I feel that self directed on-line investors need to be stick the phrase &#8220;Caveat emptor&#8221; at the top of their PC screen!!  Any who has ever bought a few shares should know 1.  that the da. suffix to the stock code has has a particular meaning (or at least should prompt additional fact finding), and 2. that considering buying a share worth 1c or less which has dropped from $1 (should prompt additional fact finding).</p>
<p>tim<br />
&#8220;video bonaque sed sequor male&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2992</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 22:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2992</guid>
		<description>the reason the asx can&#039;t cope with &quot;negative&quot; prices, is that ever since the gang of dutch fellows got together in the amsterdam coffee shop and chipped in to buy a boat and hire a captain to sail to the new world to share in plunder, stock exchanges have been places where people sell Stock (ie something), or as we call it today - Equity. 

The invention of the limited liability company (shareholders had a floor and could not be asked for a cent more - even if they owned a company which sold asbestos or thalidomide) allowed shares to be traded in the knowledge that if it all went tits up (the boat sank on the way to the new world) there could be no further call on the shareholder.

The partly paid share - with no walk away option - no longer really looks like the kind of equity our exchanges evolved to trade. It starts to look a lot more like debt.

Debt on the other hand is a much older human commercial beast (there being injunctions against in the bible and whatnot).

We have been talking about this Briscon saga for many months now, and I doubt this topic of endless fascination has been exhausted.

Dan

PS. Thanks for picking up my Bolton/One.Tel Dude piccy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the reason the asx can&#8217;t cope with &#8220;negative&#8221; prices, is that ever since the gang of dutch fellows got together in the amsterdam coffee shop and chipped in to buy a boat and hire a captain to sail to the new world to share in plunder, stock exchanges have been places where people sell Stock (ie something), or as we call it today &#8211; Equity. </p>
<p>The invention of the limited liability company (shareholders had a floor and could not be asked for a cent more &#8211; even if they owned a company which sold asbestos or thalidomide) allowed shares to be traded in the knowledge that if it all went tits up (the boat sank on the way to the new world) there could be no further call on the shareholder.</p>
<p>The partly paid share &#8211; with no walk away option &#8211; no longer really looks like the kind of equity our exchanges evolved to trade. It starts to look a lot more like debt.</p>
<p>Debt on the other hand is a much older human commercial beast (there being injunctions against in the bible and whatnot).</p>
<p>We have been talking about this Briscon saga for many months now, and I doubt this topic of endless fascination has been exhausted.</p>
<p>Dan</p>
<p>PS. Thanks for picking up my Bolton/One.Tel Dude piccy</p>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2991</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2991</guid>
		<description>@evo: thanks for the point on Macquarie Airports. Interesting to see the connection between the two deals: Macquarie Bank! I&#039;m sure they structured it that way to maximise the fees they could pull out of the deals up-front.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@evo: thanks for the point on Macquarie Airports. Interesting to see the connection between the two deals: Macquarie Bank! I&#8217;m sure they structured it that way to maximise the fees they could pull out of the deals up-front.</p>
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		<title>By: evo</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2990</link>
		<dc:creator>evo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 07:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2990</guid>
		<description>Another great post, Mule.  Note however that (to the best of my knowledge) this was not the first security to trade on the ASX which had a possibility of having negative value.  When Macquarie Airports listed, it was partly paid and unitholders were legally obliged to stump up with the remaining instalment regardless of the value of the underlying company (or trust).

The ASX should have noted at the time the perils of allowing such an instrument to exist on their exchange.  From memory the units went as low as 40c in the dollar, and the question as to whether these units could possibly have negative value was doing the rounds.

It is astounding how little attention in the press has been given to the ASX in their negligence in permitting such a security to be listed in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another great post, Mule.  Note however that (to the best of my knowledge) this was not the first security to trade on the ASX which had a possibility of having negative value.  When Macquarie Airports listed, it was partly paid and unitholders were legally obliged to stump up with the remaining instalment regardless of the value of the underlying company (or trust).</p>
<p>The ASX should have noted at the time the perils of allowing such an instrument to exist on their exchange.  From memory the units went as low as 40c in the dollar, and the question as to whether these units could possibly have negative value was doing the rounds.</p>
<p>It is astounding how little attention in the press has been given to the ASX in their negligence in permitting such a security to be listed in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: CV</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2989</link>
		<dc:creator>CV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 00:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2989</guid>
		<description>Another great post Mule.  You might also wish to focus on the role Trevor Rowe (AM) in this saga. He is on the Board of the ASX.  He is Chairman of Queensland Investment Corp (largest Bris Connect shareholder) and is of course Chairman of Bris Connect Management Company.  What a strange coincidence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another great post Mule.  You might also wish to focus on the role Trevor Rowe (AM) in this saga. He is on the Board of the ASX.  He is Chairman of Queensland Investment Corp (largest Bris Connect shareholder) and is of course Chairman of Bris Connect Management Company.  What a strange coincidence?</p>
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		<title>By: stubbornmule</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2988</link>
		<dc:creator>stubbornmule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 07:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2988</guid>
		<description>@Steven: You are absolutely right. You also need to pass a quiz before you are allowed to sell options on the ASX&#039;s Options Exchange on the basis that people need to understand the risk they are running. The experience of BrisConnections shows that options are the only instruments that can catch investors out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steven: You are absolutely right. You also need to pass a quiz before you are allowed to sell options on the ASX&#8217;s Options Exchange on the basis that people need to understand the risk they are running. The experience of BrisConnections shows that options are the only instruments that can catch investors out.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2987</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 01:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2987</guid>
		<description>A great analysis, Sean. I&#039;d love to see you writing for the AFR.

Something else that would help here, I think, is compulsory education for non-professional, mum-and-dad shareholders trading via online brokers. This is required for some things, e.g. if you want to place conditional orders via Westpac Broking, you actually need to pass an online test to demonstrate your understanding of such orders and various scenarios before activating that feature of your account. Anyone trading online should have a base level of understanding of what it is they&#039;re actually doing, especially considering many people are risking their own superannuation savings with self-managed funds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A great analysis, Sean. I&#8217;d love to see you writing for the AFR.</p>
<p>Something else that would help here, I think, is compulsory education for non-professional, mum-and-dad shareholders trading via online brokers. This is required for some things, e.g. if you want to place conditional orders via Westpac Broking, you actually need to pass an online test to demonstrate your understanding of such orders and various scenarios before activating that feature of your account. Anyone trading online should have a base level of understanding of what it is they&#8217;re actually doing, especially considering many people are risking their own superannuation savings with self-managed funds.</p>
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		<title>By: Kwoff.com</title>
		<link>http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/04/brisconnections/comment-page-1/#comment-2984</link>
		<dc:creator>Kwoff.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stubbornmule.net/?p=1676#comment-2984</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Who is to Blame for BrisConnections? &#124; A Stubborn Mule&#039;s Perspective...&lt;/strong&gt;

Everyone likes to focus on Bolton, but the blame really lies with the ASX!...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Who is to Blame for BrisConnections? | A Stubborn Mule&#8217;s Perspective&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Everyone likes to focus on Bolton, but the blame really lies with the ASX!&#8230;</p>
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